A collection of notes from discussions and posts. Please excuse the grammar errors as I am very busy and will correct this when time allows. Some of this is taken from a debate with a man named Robert. I will be updating with more as time progresses:
The goal of these notes is to discover the truth about whether the teaching of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church of Jesus Christ is in fact Biblical or not. My goal is to make this as simplistic as possible so that it is easily understood. From movies to books, there has been much confusion sown from the enemy to distort this very plain teaching of Jesus Christ. Surely, God would want his people to be taught plainly without straining over complicated words and to make the truth of the scripture known to those who have his Holy Spirit. Eschatology is a term you will often hear and it simply means the study of the end times. The end of the world is not in fact the end of everything but a beginning for those who know Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. Jesus called it the end of the age, being the end of this present time frame. Jesus did promise us that after he went back to the Father on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, that he would send the Holy Spirit and that His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, would lead us and guide us into all truth. God certainly desires that believers understand and be fully persuaded as to what the scriptures teach regarding this matter.
I am sure most who read this are already familiar with the teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the church. If not, here is a brief explanation. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the church is the teaching that believers in Jesus Christ will be "secretly" snatched away from the earth before a 7 year period known as the tribulation, or great tribulation, and taken away with Jesus back to heaven to later return after the 7 years are finished. Those who aren’t ready for Jesus when he comes will be “left behind” to endure the tribulation and faced with the decision to either accept or reject the mark of the beast in their hand or forehead.(See Revelation 13:16-18) The teaching of the secret rapture of the church was never taught by Jesus or John who wrote the book of Revelation. In fact, in Matthew 24 Jesus plainly says that he will not return until after the tribulation of those days.
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
As we will see further when scriptures are taken in their whole context, rather than manipulated by the interpretations of men, that they do in fact flow beautifully together. John plainly says in Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The previous verses from Matthew 24 and Revelation chapter 1 reveal to us that when Jesus comes back in his glory, EVERY EYE will SEE HIM and even those who pierced him (crucified him), and all the earth will wail because of him .
The teaching of the secret rapture of the church was never believed by the early apostles who wrote the New Testament scriptures nor is it found in the Old Testament. This teaching was readily received into the church from what is known as the doctrine of dispensationalism. Dispensationalism crept into the church in the 1800s and was promoted by John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. While this is factual, others have claimed that this doctrine was introduced by a prophetic utterance from a young woman from Scotland named Margaret MacDonald. Regardless of where it came from it is absolutely not taught in scripture.
There is in fact a "catching up" of living believers in the scripture and this clearly takes place at the COMING of Jesus Christ, when he returns physically to earth to set up his kingdom. There are variations of this teaching known as pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath. As we will discover further in this debate, the holy scriptures never teach a secret catching away (rapture) of the church BEFORE what is known as the Great Tribulation of antichrist. The great tribulation is known as the 70th week of Daniel and can be found in the 9th chapter of Daniel verses 24 thru 27.
One of the major misunderstandings regarding the great tribulation is that many Bible teachers today misunderstand what the great tribulation is. It is presently taught that the tribulation period is the wrath of God and as we will find in this debate, the tribulation period is not ALL the wrath of God. There is the wrath of satan spoken of in Revelation 12:12 wherein we read, “the devil has come down unto you having great WRATH.” As you read further down in the chapter, you find that the devil, (the dragon and that old serpent), persecutes the saints. Then we later see the wrath of God which is FILLED UP in the vials/bowl judgments spoken of in the book of Revelation chapter 16.
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
The word rapture is not found in the scriptures but the word RESURRECTION is. The idea of the “rapture” is found in the book of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13 thru 18. Let us read them….
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING of the Lord shall not prevent (be before) them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (emphasis mine)
One of the first things we find in reading this passage is in verse 15. Paul states that those who are alive until the COMING of the Lord will not be before those who have died. It is important to note that this is a RESURRECTION and it occurs FIRST. (See also Rev 20:4-6 for FIRST RESURRECTION) As we see Paul says, "THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP.” According to the pre-trib teaching, believers just “disappear” off of the earth and those who are on the earth never see them taken up. Just a point I would like to make. If dead bodies are rising out of the graves, do we not think that every eye will witness this event? As Jesus said when he comes, “EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM.” It is also important for me to state here that verse 16 clearly says that the Lord will DESCEND from heaven with the VOICE of the archangel, with a SHOUT, and with the TRUMP (trumpet) of God. Paul also addressed this as the LAST TRUMPET as we will see further on.
John also recorded this event in Revelation 10:7 while he was on the Island of Patmos,..
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the VOICE of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
I couldn’t help notice that Robert addressed 1 Corinthians 15 and the mystery Paul wrote of. Robert taught that Paul’s mention of a “twinkling of an eye” teaches that believers will be “snatched out” at any moment. Let us read them,
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the TWINKLING of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is obvious by Paul’s words that the mystery is not believers being “raptured” out from the earth but the RESURRECTION of believers’ bodies (BEING CHANGED) at the COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ. As we see previously in the chapter….
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at HIS COMING. (NOTE: There are no two separate comings of Jesus Christ)
Paul is teaching believers about the mystery of us being CHANGED from mortal bodies to eternal immortal bodies.
As we proceed in the debate we are going to look at the book of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. One of the major points I want to show and prove is that there is no such teaching of the imminence- (can happen at any moment)- of the second coming of Jesus Christ taught anywhere in scripture. In fact Jesus, as well as Paul taught us that things must FIRST take place and scriptures have yet to be FULFILLED before Jesus will even return. I will also like to address the teaching of what is referred to as the “ LEFT-BEHIND” teaching which I will prove with only one scripture that this teaching is in fact a gross perversion of the precious word of God. So.... grab a Bible and read along. We will do our best as God’s servants to accurately handle and rightly divide the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Anyone who thinks believers are getting raptured before the wrath of God, can you answer this question? Why are Jesus' words in red in the middle of the 6th bowl?..... Rev 16:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. You see just like Noah, God will preserve his people, even in the midst of his wrath being poured out. Remember Psalm 91? It speaks of plagues and pestilence. It states, "a thousand shall fall at your side and ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near to you." We must understand that Christ's word in Revelation 16 are in the MIDDLE of the FULL MEASURE of HIS WRATH being poured out on the earth. We have 7 seals, then 7 angels blowing 7 trumpets, and then 7 bowls or VIALS of WRATH. Rev 15:1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is FILLED UP the WRATH of God. Rev 16:1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the VIALS OF WRATH of God upon the earth. Now we see why Jesus said this....... Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Luk 17:32 REMEMBER LOT'S WIFE. Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Is not God capable of preserving his people while wrath is present on earth? Does he not preserve his people today? Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
We do not know the exact day nor hour but we will know the season.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you....
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 BUT ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
We should know by scripture that Jesus' second coming is at the end when he comes in HIS glory and cuts the great tribulation short.....
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.. .....
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
with his glorious appearing when every eye sees him......
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
and at his coming the dead rise FIRST.....
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:........
Which is the first resurrection.....
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is at this resurrection that we are changed in a twinkling of an eye. Many teach that the rapture takes place as a "twinkling" of an eye which is not so..... It is in fact believers being changed having been given their glorified bodies....
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.......
at the Last trumpet which is the 7th......
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
There is a teaching so ingrained in most that Jesus can return at the next moment. According to scripture there is no such thing as an imminent second coming of Christ. Why? Scripture must first be fulfilled and because scripture must first be fulfilled Jesus WILL NOT return until all has been fulfilled.........
Two things in which one is beginning to come to pass before our very eyes.....
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We are left with one problem... If the resurrection takes place at the 7th trumpet then why in the middle of the 6th bowl, (which are after the trumpets), does Jesus say this?.....(Most Bibles have the words of Christ in red)....
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial (bowl) into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
The bowls are the outpouring of God's wrath in full measure..
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
The answer is simple. The 7 trumpets which are blown before the vials are an actual triggerof the vials. While in between the seals and trumpets, there is some matter of time, when the vials are poured out- they are simultaneous! I believe Jesus keeps his own in a sphere of protection. Is he not able to do this? He kept and preserved Noah in the ark. The ark is a type of Christ in which those who are in Christ will be kept safe from the wrath of God.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The Greek word for KEEP is tereso ek which is being kept through not taken out of. It is the same Greek word Jesus used here as well....
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest KEEP them from the evil.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Taken where?........
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Mat 13:39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
It is important to add that it will be destruction that will take them away while the righteous are left.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Below are two videos that you should watch regarding this topic. I am not very eloquent but I just try to tell the truth as best as I can:
